Comments on re-think immigration: We Ask You: What do ANTI and PRO really mean?

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2009-11-20T04:52:30.152-05:00

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For more insight into dee's mindset, check out her...

2007-07-10T23:01:17.998-04:00

For more insight into dee's mindset, check out her hateful posts in this thread:

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_6308434

Her hatred towards Anglo-Americans is not only blatant, but she also throws racist remarks at black posters who disagree with her on immigration("Stepin Fetchit") and at Hispanic-American posters who put loyalty to our country ahead of loyalty to "la raza" (she calls them "traitors" and "wannabe white" etc.)
Even though I know that Dee is a certified "raza, raza uber alles" type, even I was shocked by the nature of the deranged racial and ideological hatreds she exhibited in these posts. This is one sick lady.

"Joel and I come from the people. We worked hard a...

2007-07-09T22:35:55.507-04:00

"Joel and I come from the people. We worked hard all of our lives. We are not like you at all. We picked ourselves up by our bootstraps, became educated, and made our way in the world. Nothing was ever handed to us. We relate to the new Immigrants (legal and illegal). We, like them, have been treated as second class citizens. Now, we stand up for our beliefs"

By doing so you have essentially admitted your disloyalty and complicity. La Hermandad dela Raza first, the U.S. second. Case closed.

There appears to be some unrecognized nuances here...

2007-07-09T22:27:42.425-04:00

There appears to be some unrecognized nuances here, the most important one relates to disloyalty: can loyalty to La Hermandad de la Raza be consistent with loyalty to the U.S.. I don't believe so. To qualify as a loyal citizen one must always place the U.S. ahead of race, or raging ethnic politics.

"ANTIs use of terms like "Miami is a 3rd world cou...

2007-07-09T22:20:47.913-04:00

"ANTIs use of terms like "Miami is a 3rd world country." Your use of terms like "Mexifornia for California, Mexus for Texas," etc. et."

Yes, those are my terms and there is a rational for them.. The evidence is there for those who wish to see it. Sgt. Foucault provided some insights in that regard for San Diego -- and by extention for all of Southern California if not the entire state. If the term is not 100% appropriate now, it will be shortly.

In Texas the D Magazine article provided plenty of support for Mexus title, if not today, before very long. It's the trend I am speaking of, one you often boast about.

"ANTIs believe anything short of Deportation is Am...

2007-07-09T22:15:32.442-04:00

"ANTIs believe anything short of Deportation is Amnesty for the 12M."

It is true that some not all Antis believe anything short of deportation is amnesty because it rewards the illegals with the object of their crime, a chance to stay in this country and work.

Although not in accord with the legal definition of amnesty, this is a reasonable 2nd definition. As I have suggested from time to time the idea of a "return to obedience" is another element of amnesty. This must be understood as a return to one's homeland permanently or until one can qualify for legal admission as a legal immigrant or a guest worker.

The question is how can we handle this problem in a way that will satisfy both sides. One way to begin is to simply title any new immigration bill that advocates legalization of most illegals as "The Immigration Amnesty Bill of 2009". This admits this quarrelsome aspect right up front and enables us to move on to more substantive matters while at the same time taking into account what is being proposed is really a form of amnesty. I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact it might lead to other compromises that enable others to see the merit of a process that enables those foreign workers we need to remain and those who are scheduled for removal to have an expedited immigration appeal and a quick decision. There is some middle ground here and it might facilitate matters if we simply were able to agree that mass legalization is a form of amnesty.

"ANTIs believing anything short of Deportation is ...

2007-07-09T22:03:51.988-04:00

"ANTIs believing anything short of Deportation is Amnesty for the 12M."

But I didn't say that. Some may believe that the rule of law should be paramount. Let's not be too hard on them. From at least that perspective and perhaps others, they are right. My personal view is a little more on the practical side, recognizing that some foreign labor is needed and that some appeals of deportation should be successful but that others should be unsuccessful and their removal should always be involuntary to avoid repeat offenses without penalty.

"You call PROs disloyal for believing in CIS. (Com...

2007-07-09T21:58:56.580-04:00

"You call PROs disloyal for believing in CIS. (Comp Immigration Reform)"

Actually, no. Although I prefer stepwise immigration reform, CIS is not the reason for suggesting some Pros might be guilty of disloyalty.
My main bone of contention is that regard is their preference for supporting La Hermandas de la Raza instead of their fellow citizens, the national interest and the national sovereignty. This is an important distinction. It is almost as if we are asking, "Whose side are you on anyway, the side of foreigner and foreign governments or that of your fellow citizens and our government?"

Just as everyone sees the PROs for who they are.

2007-07-08T21:51:40.730-04:00

Just as everyone sees the PROs for who they are.

Ulty,Mr.Ulty, the most normal of all the ANTIs, wh...

2007-07-08T20:26:38.954-04:00

Ulty,
Mr.Ulty, the most normal of all the ANTIs, what you are NOT getting is each of your posts corroborates everything I have written.

Read them for yourselves.

You call PROs disloyal for believing in CIS. (Comp Immigration Reform)

ANTIs believing anything short of Deportation is Amnesty for the 12M.

ANTIs use of terms like "Miami is a 3rd world country." Your use of terms like "Mexifornia for California, Mexus for Texas," etc. et. You have corroborated and confirmed these are your quotes.

Ulty, my friend, you are the best of the ANTIs and even you are blatant in your recommendations.

At least you are honest. At least now, all of America sees ANTIs for who they are.

Ulty,Mr.Ulty, the most normal of all the ANTIs, wh...

2007-07-08T20:26:01.498-04:00

Issue Pros Antis Population Stabilization ...

2007-07-08T14:10:53.203-04:00

Issue Pros Antis

Population Stabilization no yes
Pathway to citizenship for 12 M illegals yes no
Legalize all 12 million yes no
Comprehensive reform yes no
Stepwise reform no yes
Deport all 12 million no no
Employer required to prove need no yes
Illegals displace American workers no yes
Illegals depress wages no yes
Official English no yes
Modify 14th amendment no yes
Pros are disloyal to the U.S. yes no
Pros are loyal to La Hermandad de la Raza no yes
Ethnic political forums yes no
Fraudulent SSNs and docs as felonies no yes
Repeat border violations as felonies no yes
Display of foreign flag without a permit yes no
Trend toward Mexifonia & Mexico Norte? no yes
Viva Carlos Slim yes no
Viva Calderon yes no
Viva Bush no no
Viva U.S.Senate Re: S.1639 no yes
Viva National Sovereignty no yes
Preserve envmnt by controlling population no yes
Stop extinction of species no yes
Roy Beck for Executive Director of INS no yes
Bi-lingual state yes no
Welfare for illegals incl. obstetrical services yes no
Employer responsibility for health care no yes
Huge net post-retirement costs of illegals no yes
Illegals pay all taxes yes no
Reduce legal immigration to 200k/year total no yes
Fences, barriers, surveillance no yes
More Border patrol agents no yes
National Guard at the borders no yes
Detain illegals without bail no yes
Support illegal foreigners yes no
Anchor babies yes no
Chain immigrations yes no
The Gumball Illustration is correct no yes
Antis are bigots yes no
Pros are bigots no yes
Use ad hominen arguments yes no
Antis are radicals yes no
Amnesty would be an open invitation no yes
S.1639 provided an amnesty no yes
Believe in Southwest assimilation yes no
Illegals prefer soc. Integ. to ethnic enclaves yes no
Illegals are tolerant of anglos yes no
Anglos are tolerant of Illegals no no
MALDEF, MECHa, LULAC, etc. are racist no yes
Antis seek to turn Blacks against Hispanics yes no
Blacks oppose illegal aliens no yes
Immigration law work if enforced no yes
Easier legal immigration and citizenship yes no
Border security and results first no yes
Match labor supply with jobs yes yes
Specifiy type of work authorized on ID no yes
Trivial offenses yes no
Self-deportation yes no
Dual citizenship yes no
Quality of life reduced by population growth no yes
The limit of finite resources/population = 0 no yes
The carrying cap. of the land is threatened no yes
Preserve the America we know and love no yes
Rule of law no yes
Pathway to citizenship no yes
Middle ground no yes
Pros and politicians are shortsighted no yes

Strangely no one on the "PRO" side likes my idea o...

2007-07-08T14:06:26.462-04:00

Strangely no one on the "PRO" side likes my idea of an "amnesty tax." I wonder why?

(20) Pro's believe in La Hermandad de la Raza is m...

2007-07-08T12:40:52.774-04:00

(20) Pro's believe in La Hermandad de la Raza is more important than good citizenship, national sovereignty, and loyalty to the U.S. and their fellow citizens.

(30) Antis believe Pros should heap their abuse on...

2007-07-08T12:38:04.039-04:00

(30) Antis believe Pros should heap their abuse on Carlos Slim and do what they can to increase his concern for the human dignity of Mexican and to obtain his funding and support for obstetrical and triage hospitals at the border crossings in Mexico.

(31) Antis believe in the preservation of the environment and the avoidance of species extinction through world and U.S. population control.

(32) Antis believe that the world cannot easily and comfortably accommodate an unlimited number of people at any desirable level of material, mental and civic well-being.

(33) Antis believe that population growth in the U.S. is solely the result of too many legal immigrants, illegal aliens,anchor babies, chain immigration and the higher fertility rates of foreigners.

(19) Pros have no concern about the effects of pop...

2007-07-08T12:23:08.944-04:00

(19) Pros have no concern about the effects of population growth on the environment and the extinction of species.

Great idea MaryST.

2007-07-08T12:21:00.030-04:00

Great idea MaryST.

I propose a special "amnesty tax" for all supporte...

2007-07-07T22:27:08.068-04:00

I propose a special "amnesty tax" for all supporters of foreigners over fellow Americans. Real Americans would not have to pay. Any takers?

Another thing you could say about the PROs is that...

2007-07-07T22:23:20.702-04:00

Another thing you could say about the PROs is that none of them want to take on the responsibility of paying for the trillions of dollars in increased welfare, social security, and infrastructure costs that massive amnesty would burden the taxpayers with. They want to force us "ANTIs" to pick up the tab for the "free" meals they want to lavish on their raza. How very, very generous of them.

Now if the "PROs" volunteered to pay for every bit of the increased costs of amnesty themselves, without burdening everybody else, maybe they would get a better hearing from the opposition.

I have no problem calling many "PROs" traitors bec...

2007-07-07T22:11:30.827-04:00

I have no problem calling many "PROs" traitors because that's what they are. They want to advance their "race" at the expense of American taxpayers. They care more about Pedro from Oaxaca than they do about Joe Nextdoor Neighbor, especially if Joe Nextdoor Neighbor is not "Hispanic." The ones who just want to make money off the illegals are also traitors, and many of those are non-Hispanic.

"There are a few politicians that support them, no...

2007-07-07T20:51:24.104-04:00

"There are a few politicians that support them, not many."

It turned out that it was the majority of the senators so this statement doesn't hold water. I suspect the House would have been another defeat had the bill gotten that far.

Besides we all know how politicians vote and act -- in the interests of their donors not the American people at large unless they become aroused by an obvious travesty like S.1639.

Why are Pros so adamant about comprehensive reform as opposed to a more measured and logical approach? This has never been explained, perhaps becaue it is inexplicable.

"The majority advocate Deportation (mass or self) ...

2007-07-07T20:46:02.829-04:00

"The majority advocate Deportation (mass or self) of the illegal immigrants in this country. Anything short of Deportation is termed Amnesty by the ANTIs."

See my views above regarding deportation and amnesty, especially # 7,8,15,21,22,23 and 24 under Antis above. I guess there must be some authoritative statistics out there that prove I am not in the majority of the Antis.

What part of #9,11 & 15 under Pros above is unfair or inaccurate?

"We are PRO Immigration Reform. Our current proces...

2007-07-07T20:15:06.237-04:00

"We are PRO Immigration Reform. Our current process is severely flawed. That is why we need comprehensive immigration reform and some type of path to citizenship for the 12M here."

We know that I believe I listed that among the tenets of the Pros. Our current immigration laws have never been effectively enforced so one cannot state authoritatively that they are severely flawed. Antis are also in favor of immigration reform, stepwise reform building the concrete results from the preceding steps not a monstrous comprehensive bill that no one has read or understoood in its entirety. The dog won't hunt.

"While I have been fair in my critique of ANTIs, t...

2007-07-07T20:08:07.830-04:00

"While I have been fair in my critique of ANTIs, they are not fair in their critique of PROs."

In what way were we unfair? Details, please. What false statements did I make regarding the Pros? My summary of what I thought your positions wer is a strawman subject to your corrections but not your distortions>

"I love it when an ANTI responds to my posts. They...

2007-07-07T20:01:08.427-04:00

"I love it when an ANTI responds to my posts. They basically corroborate everything I´ve written as you can see by Ultima´s post. Ultima is one of MATT´s most popular ANTI members (more moderate and USUALLY less angry than most ANTIs). If you read what he said in response to my comments and compare it to what I said, you will have a basic definition of an ANTI."

If you think I have in any way corroborated what you have written you continue to delude yourself. If you are referring to Mexifornia, than you are writing about a fact not a corroboration of your disagreement with that terminology.
So we could all understand more precisely what you meant by the quote perhaps you elaborate chapter and verse. It is a little hard to respond with specifics to generalities. It just goes to show that we see what we want to see and make no attempt to understand empathetically the other person's point of view. Instead you just fit it to your point of view, hammer to fit, paint to match as it were.